The Financial Review has a federal poll from Freshwater Strategy, the pollster’s first for the paper since mid-December, though it conducted one for the News Corp papers in early January. It has Labor leading 51-49, after its previous two polls both recorded a dead heat. There is little change on the primary vote, with Labor on 31% and the Coalition on 38%, respectively steady and down one from both the two previous polls, and the Greens on 14%, up one from the December poll and steady from January.
A preferred prime minister measure has Anthony Albanese leading Peter Dutton 42-38, little changed from 43-39 in December. A question on the tax cut amendments finds 44% supportive, 26% indifferent and 15% opposed, with 32% expecting to be better off, 12% worse off and 43% anticipating no difference. The poll was conducted Friday to Sunday from a sample of 1049.
For those boofheads who don’t believe what the Australian et al have been reporting – here is the ABC:
Heavily armed ‘optionally crewed’ ships to enter service under massive reshaping of Australia’s naval fleet
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-02-20/heavily-armed-optionally-crewed-ships-under-naval-fleet-reshape/103487878
Another interesting factoid from the Midas network this morning.
Those Dog awful gold shoes that Trump put his name to and which were claimed to have sold out in a few hours. The actual shoes have not been manufactured, all that has happened is that some very gullible people have paid for them up front, the small print states that there is no refund, no set delivery date, no set date to actually get them manufactured and no guarantees that the shoes they ordered will look anything like what they actually get.
I can only view the average MAGA member as being thicker than a ratty 70’s shag pile rug and almost as smart.
nathsays:
Tuesday, February 20, 2024 at 9:24 am
Pied Piper. says:
Tuesday, February 20, 2024 at 9:22 am
Who does labor dislike the most the Greens or liberals?
_______________________
There’s a fair few on here who don’t even like the Labor Left.
The Catholic Right, and people like Bill Shorten are their heroes.
======================================================
There does seem to be a lot of love for the Catholic far right. One poster, who i’ll not name, went as far as suggesting we clone Archbishop Mannix and his financier of choice John Wren the other week. Reopening the great schism. Which i can still remember in my family. With half going off to support other teams and other half staying loyal to Collingwood. Still remember family discussions where one side saying Wren was a thug and a murderer. With other side saying he was great man as he made Collingwood great and that trumps everything else. My dads Grandma was a crazy Collingwood supporter. So no bad thing was allowed to be said about John Wren till after she was gone. She was a really nasty piece of work whose main pleasure in life. Was going to Victoria Park on Saturday and positioning herself next to the opposition players race. Then pouring boiling water from her thermos and stabbing them with the end of her umbrella as they ran on the ground. If Collingwood lost nobody in the family was allowed to eat till the next day, as a sign of mourning too.
Hot off the press:
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/more-firepower-fewer-frigates-australia-s-11-billion-navy-upgrade-revealed-20240220-p5f68e.html
A lot to digest, with more details to come. A few questions:
1. Will the remaining six Hunter Class Frigates have extra missile cells – over and above the 32 VLS system originally envisaged? They will be fitted with Tomahawk missiles, so I’m not sure that is viable with only 32 cells, given that the ship must have a basic AW capability (say 8 cells for quad packed ESSMs and 16 cells for a combination of SM2s and SM6 missiles).
2. What exactly are the specifications for the new ‘standard Frigate’ design?
3. How much will the reduced in number (9 to 6 ships) Hunter Class cost to build now?
4. What are the specifications for this ‘optionally manned’ large surface vessel?
Interesting the naval stuff today. I have to admit i did not realize just how BIG the Hunter class is. Nearly 9000 Tonnes vs 7000 for the Hobart class ……
If Hobart is a destroyer how can you call Hunter a frigate??
Proposal to increase the VLS tubes to 96 on some of the hunter class?? Sounds good, if you can afford the rounds to fill them.
Have to admit i am not as erghhh with the Arafura program as some. Add CEA radars, 4-8 anti ship, an couple of guns and matbe RAM missile?
Ahh. news coming through now.
Lidl and Kaufland will not enter the Australian market as barriers to entry are too high, specifically warehousing
there are 4 major food warehouses
– Coles
– Woolworths
– Aldi
– Metcash that supplies IGA
When Aldi started in Australia you could see them grow slowly as they established more warehouses. Cairns & Cooktown will probably never get Aldi as too far from Brisbane warehouse
Real estate see ABC* LANDBANKING to locate supermarket is has been locked up by existing players
Aldi used to run out of fresh produce at end of day by design – eliminates wastage which runs at 20% in fresh produce
Aldi PRICES have crept up from their initial start when colesworth wouldn’t allow Aldi to sell vegemite or arnotts biscuits. I think they are 66% of a colesworth shop
eg
pack of 8 miniwraps from same supplier $2.20 in Aldi, $5.50 in Coles
single packs of 180g rump are $6 Aldi, $8 in Coles
Then of course there is the unobtainable
Aldi – French goats cheese spread
Coles – Melitta ground coffee
* https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-02-20/woolworths-coles-supermarket-tactics-grocery-four-corners/103405054
AE
“Surely – if the Anglo forelock tuggers have to be sated – we could go straight to a ‘Block 2’ Hunter Class with a 64-96 cell VLS replacing the ‘multi mission’ module: because at 10,000 tonnes displacement, and with only 32 VLS cells, the Hunter class is THE MOST underfunded warship of that size in the world. ”
I think you meant “underarmed”. Hunter is far from “underfunded” 😀
But seriously, the BAE tactics to keep all of our money are pretty obvious here if you follow the timeline:
– Hunter criticised for cost blowing out to $45 billion for nine ships
– Labor government threatens to cut Hunter program to 6 or even 3 ships
– BAE advises price of Hunter is still going up. Now we are told it is $65 billion for 9 ships
– Labor government announces Hunter program cut to 6 ships.
– What is the bet 6 Hunters will end up costing $45 billion?
As a minimum, Labor needs to order a detailed financial audit of the Hunter program, to see if any money has been transferred falsely by BAE back to UK. The parent ship design, the Type 26 frigate, is under serious financial pressure in UK, following budget blowouts and numbers cutbacks by the RN as well.
You can bet the extra money isn’t going to BAE’s Australian staff.
https://thewest.com.au/business/manufacturing/electricians-move-on-industrial-action-against-bae-systems-shipbuilding-operations-in-henderson–c-12709444
Fun fact: you can find some of BAE’s lobbyists, both former politicians and former defence chiefs, here.
https://michaelwest.com.au/revolving-doors/
At first blush there is a lot to like about today’s Navy announcement:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-02-20/heavily-armed-optionally-crewed-ships-under-naval-fleet-reshape/103487878
I particularly like the following:
A 25 vessel ‘small combatant’ fleet, comprising at its core 6 Arafura class OSPVs and evolved Cape Class patrol Vessels;
The 26 vessel ‘large combatant’ fleet, which when combined with the small combatant fleets, LHDs, Heavy Sea Lift ships, supply ships, the planned four (4) large heavy landing ships, half a dozen ‘odds and sods’, plus submarines should provide Australia with a 70+ ship strength Navy Fleet.
What I don’t like is persisting with the ridiculously expensive and impotent Hunter Class program; and as a consequence of this NOT building a single new ship with the missile capabilities of at least the Hobart AWD class until around 2035 (with the first ship of said class not coming into service until the 2040s).
billie,
Do Aldi contribute to OzHarvest?
Supermarket giants could be stripped of their chains and have them sold off to boost competition under powers being pushed by Nationals leader David Littleproud. The conduct of Woolworths and Coles has been put back into the spotlight after a Four Corners investigation into the supermarket sectors’ pricing tactics. Both companies have previously denied the practices amount to price gouging.
But Mr Littleproud said the documentary simply “validated” what he already knew. “We’ve got the evidence. We have seen that with meat prices and fresh produce,” he told Sunrise on Tuesday morning. “I think this now demonstrates we need to come together as legislatures, put aside politics and bring in … powers which would strip some of these big supermarkets of their chains and we may even see some of their stores have to be sold off to competitors to increase competition.”
https://thewest.com.au/business/call-for-coles-woolies-to-sell-off-stores-to-promote-greater-competition-in-sector-c-13656851
“2. What exactly are the specifications for the new ‘standard Frigate’ design?”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_31_frigate
or maybe the new US constellation class??
“4. What are the specifications for this ‘optionally manned’ large surface vessel?”
USV with lots of missile cells i think. Baby Arsenal ship?? Maybe that carries some fuel and supplies for other ships as well??
If they go with that then it may be planned to stay with 30-40 VLS on the “frigates” and use the USV’s for grunt??
Interesting times. Lots of industrial goodies for Perth / W.A. in this.
GoldenSmaug @ #503 Tuesday, February 20th, 2024 – 10:54 am
‘There’s a sucker born every minute’
Shouldn’t ever ship the navy has be “operationally crewed”. I’d hate to fight a war with a non-operationally crewed ship.
A very quick google found that Lehrman’s paternal grandfather was a cotton father from near Waco. His mother comes from a cotton growing family in Moree, NSW. Lehrman has half-brothers who are into mineral exploration in Texas.
The obituary of his grandfather is here – no mention of Republican politics but he was a member of Lions.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/219198280/kirby-emery-lehrmann
“A 25 vessel ‘small combatant’ fleet, comprising at its core 6 Arafura class OSPVs and evolved Cape Class patrol Vessels;”
Useful. But give em a decent radar, at least a 57mm DP gun, and a RAM launcher please.
C@tmomma
I doubt Aldi contribute to OzHarvest because their fresh produce philosophy is different to Colesworth
daily deliveries from warehouse
prepared to run out
My local Woolworths Metro gets deliveries around 11am on Tuesday and Friday, tries not to run out of fresh produce
It sounds like ADF procurement boffins come from the same gene pool as Colesworth execs
as they fight the same legacy systems and past poor decision making
So in addition to the cost blow out, the lead ship in the stupid Hunter Class Frigate program won’t come into service until 2034 now. …
It is good that the Navy is getting more ships.
Where’s the logistics spending?
On water and off water logistics support?
Extra manning?
Accommodation for all the extra personnel including married quarters in highly demand accommodation areas near the likely home ports?
Posters on this site are keen to roll out the full life cycle costs of the AUKUS boats – not a peep on the full lifecycle costings for these? Just the build costs. Some boats are more equal than others?
I came here to see what AE thought of the naval announcement, but I see I’m a bit early for the really deep analysis, will come back later.
Oh, I also came in here to wonder if Max Hyphen has any credibility left after his “million homes vacant” shit on Insiders and insisting there’s no supply problem of housing, which is awfully handy for him.
https://archive.md/ux7i8
He either doesn’t understand the Census data or wilfully misrepresented it for political mileage, which puts him in the same bracket as ScoMo.
That guy represents everything wrong with the current incarnation of the Greens to me.
“So in addition to the cost blow out, the lead ship in the stupid Hunter Class Frigate program won’t come into service until 2034 now. …”
doing defence programs with the UK never really seems to work out does it? 🙁
“What convoys would they be?. Not those taking iron ore to China i would guess.”
Well under the assumption that we’re in a war that requires fighting China or the Russian Pacific Fleet, it would be convoys carrying the army where it needs to go.
Tamara Francine Smith, an Australian politician, is a member of the New South Wales Legislative Assembly representing Ballina on the north coast of NSW for the Greens since 2015.
Shoots MI and BW’s arguments down. That Greens representatives are only city folk.
The Greens don’t have the campaign funds to run a big advertising campaign like Labor and LNP.
Big advertising wins votes and elections.
Labor, Liberal and National Parties policies don’t usually help country people or city people except the better off.
Interested how earlier comments about Santamaria’s influence helped the Liberals during his time in politics.
That Catholic influence with Bill Shorten and Don Farrell being dominant in Labor policy decisions also helped the Liberals and Nationals stay in government from 2013 to 2022 by supporting most Howard, Abbott, Morrison and Dutton policies.
Which many voters may not want. But who are not important in Shorten’s or Farrell’s eyes
https://www.naval-technology.com/news/us-launch-vanguard-first-overlord-large-usv-fully-designed-for-autonomy/
Large USV??
The Defence press release is here, with more information.
https://www.minister.defence.gov.au/media-releases/2024-02-20/navys-enhanced-lethality-surface-combatant-fleet
To note:
– the Hobart upgrade refers to fitting recent AEGIS model, not increasing VLS, plus tomahawk missiles (OK)
– 11 new general purpose frigates that will provide maritime and land strike, air defence and escort capabilities. Shortlisted for tendering are Spanish, German, South Korean and Japanese designs (good)
– Six Hunters are current version plus Tomahawks (sigh)
– Six new Large Optionally Crewed Surface Vessels (LOSVs) that will significantly increase Navy’s long-range strike capacity (32 VLS each) (very good)
Marles is a master of delaying action. So now after a review and a delayed release plan, we start a tender for the new frigates.
No Defence shipbuilding plan announced by any government since Rudd’s in 2009 has been fully delivered as promised. Lets see how this one goes.
Thanks, billie. 🙂
Samantha Maiden turning English on its head in an endeavor to suggest Albo will call an election in 2024.
https://www.news.com.au/national/federal-election/leaked-internal-messages-suggest-anthony-albanese-will-call-election-in-2024/news-story/96d6ad614d96e6fbc926d43f67eca9b0
@ imacca, re the Arafuras:
“ Useful. But give em a decent radar, at least a 57mm DP gun, and a RAM launcher please.”
Agreed, but I’d swap out the 57mm DP gun for a DP auto cannon – capable of doing CIWS work and firing at surface threats. Turkey, the Swiss and several other countries produce such weapons – typically comprising something like twin 30-35MM cannons capable of firing between 11 and 2000 rpm in full auto mode (like the phalanx CIWS they come within own radar guided automatic firing systems).
I’d also add the option of mounting either a single 4 canister NSM system or twin light torpedo launches – to be fitted depending on the mission parameters.
You wouldn’t believe Littleproud had any education, in fact he has 17 years NAB agribusiness banking
Selling off Colesworth stores will not lower prices as new entrant has to
establish warehouse
get truckies
get or train logistics to manage each product line
Aldi spent 5 years setting up their Australian operation before opening a store
There is a reason the produce merchants have closed and farmer Jim stopped taking beasts to Homebush preferring the Woollies buyer to visit the farm and saying I will take that paddock at $1.12 dressed weight
Shoots MI ans BW’s arguments down. That Greens representatives are only city folk.
They’re Tree Changers and Sea Changers as well. Also, the descendants of those whose parents moved to places like Nimbin and Margaret River in the 80s. So, you want to discredit the rest of MI and BW’s argument based upon this small mistake? Typical of your style, I must say, Irene.
@Holdenhillbilly: “Supermarket giants could be stripped of their chains and have them sold off to boost competition under powers being pushed by Nationals leader David Littleproud. The conduct of Woolworths and Coles has been put back into the spotlight after a Four Corners investigation into the supermarket sectors’ pricing tactics. Both companies have previously denied the practices amount to price gouging.
But Mr Littleproud said the documentary simply “validated” what he already knew. “We’ve got the evidence. We have seen that with meat prices and fresh produce,” he told Sunrise on Tuesday morning. “I think this now demonstrates we need to come together as legislatures, put aside politics and bring in … powers which would strip some of these big supermarkets of their chains and we may even see some of their stores have to be sold off to competitors to increase competition.”
https://thewest.com.au/business/call-for-coles-woolies-to-sell-off-stores-to-promote-greater-competition-in-sector-c-13656851”
Yeah, I am not convinced this would ever go beyond talking. Supermarkets are not corner milk bars. There’s enormous supply chains and logistics involved. Obviously making Coles give stores to Woolies or vice versa, besides the logistics, would just be shuffling deck chairs, so what, are they going to be forcibly sold to Aldi, who’d probably not want them in most locations as they’d be close to an existing Aldi anyway? Forcibly sold to IGA who – same issue, AND likely more expensive for consumers? There’s no other competitors. You can’t magically create a supermarket chain and the barrier to entry is huge.
Selling stores isn’t the answer unless you do a full-on Standard Oil and actually break up Coles and Woolies into multiple smaller chains, but gee the disruption would be huge and I can’t help but think again that it would ultimately increase costs and reduce efficiencies for consumers.
I think the answer can really only be better regulation of the existing players and punishment when they are caught price gouging.
imacca says:
Tuesday, February 20, 2024 at 11:10 am
“Lots of industrial goodies for Perth / W.A. in this.”
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-02-20/heavily-armed-optionally-crewed-ships-under-naval-fleet-reshape/103487878
“The planned number of Offshore Patrol Vessels being built in Western Australia will be halved to six”
imacca – what is your claim based on? WA is going backwards based on the ABC reporting.
Mostly Interested @ #527 Tuesday, February 20th, 2024 – 11:23 am
She’s a strange one. Often willing to be the Coalition’s handmaiden, even whilst they abuse her behind her back. Yet, she also breaks stories that do damage to them, big time. I suppose she sees that as ‘balanced’.
Aldi does contribute to OzHarvest, that’s a classic easily Googlable fact
https://corporate.aldi.com.au/corporate-responsibility/environment/food-rescue/
“He either doesn’t understand the Census data or wilfully misrepresented it for political mileage, which puts him in the same bracket as ScoMo.”
The article doesn’t do anything to actually disprove him. It simply says “oh well there might be reasons they’re empty”.
Yeah, no shit. There’s always going to be a reason a house is empty. Even if the 40% of empty homes being “residents who weren’t there” is followed, that’s still half a million homes empty for no valid reason.
And no, being a “holiday home” or “empty rental” isn’t a valid reason either.
Hmmmmm. Thinking out loud….
SurveyUSA polls recently have Trump up 20pts v Biden in Montana (he won it by 16 in 2020). But Tester (Democrat trying to hold his Senate spot) is up by 10pts.
Tester certainly is respected in Montana. And Trump came at him hard in 2018 but failed to unseat him then.
I do wonder just how solid Trumps cult following really is in rural USA. Bush won Montana by more than Trump has won it. The poll in question has Trump at 50% to Biden 30%. You’d imagine if Trump had rabid rural support and considering the blanket RW media coverage supporting Trump and bashing Biden… he would be higher than 50%. And then there is Tester (a democrat and overtly anti Trump) at 50% against various Republican options. Keeping in mind that Bullock, another popular democrat in Montana lost his senate bid in 2020 by 10pts.
And Sherrod Brown (Senate) in Ohio is up (just) in the polls. Ohio is supposed to be redder since MAGA.
So, very tentatively, could you postulate that the MAGA cult isnt as big as made out to be, the independents are not buying (yet) what Trump is selling and the GOP moderates support of Trump may be waning? Is all the MAGA FoxNews etc BS only being reflected in Bidens approvals (and head to heads at 9 months out)?
My local shopping centre is blessed with a Coles, Woolworths and Aldi.
The big two have been there for decades, the Aldi a couple of years.
As an older single male my shopping needs are modest and since I was left in charge of catering 20 years ago (this week as it happens) I have never managed to get my head around shopping for a week.
It’s easier to just pick up a few items two or three times a week.
I used to prefer Woolworths to Coles. A brighter, airier shop and usually less busy.
Now I’m most likely to be found in Aldi.
It seems easier to get in and out with 15 or so items … I won’t use self checkout. The limited range of products is not a problem to me and the quality of meat and fruit and vegetables seems fine.
Only problem is they don’t stock my preferred brand of instant coffee and teabags so the occasional visit to Woolworths is required.
Old preferences are hard to break.
Only a Nationals leader could get away with socialist brain farts.
And IF Colesworth stores are sold off and the chains are broken up, guess what? Predatory buyers from overseas will simply come into the market and cannibalise them and we end up back to square one with profit-making. Except, now the companies will no longer be Australian-owned.
So, all I want to see the government do is to make Colesworth realise a decent profit and rejig their pricing algorithms to make the amount they charge consumers fair.
“ imacca – what is your claim based on? WA is going backwards based on the ABC reporting.”
FMD.
1. By the time the Henderson yard completes the six Arafura Class OSPVs they will be neck deep in building eight (8) General Purpose Frigates; and
2. Henderson has been identified as the shipyard responsible for building the six (6) optionally manned warships; and
3. It is likely that WA will be responsible for building any new evolved Cape Class PVs that are required to fill out the 25 strong small surface fleet.
So yes, there ARE lots of goodies for Perth shipbuilding.
@Mostly Interested: “Samantha Maiden turning English on its head in an endeavor to suggest Albo will call an election in 2024.
https://www.news.com.au/national/federal-election/leaked-internal-messages-suggest-anthony-albanese-will-call-election-in-2024/news-story/96d6ad614d96e6fbc926d43f67eca9b0”
How so?
“as we enter the election year” seems, um, a very strong hint that Gartrell at least thinks this is an election year for the Federal Government. While Gartrell could be wrong, or could have meant something different to what he said, I don’t see how Maiden has done anything but draw the obvious conclusion from the plain words of the text. Not turning English on its head at all.
I doubt anyone expected that the Houthi would be prevented altogether from launching drones and missiles. No such claims have been made by anyone.
The Houthi are expanding the range of their endeavours to including in the use of surface drones and underwater drones. These were either destroyed at launching or shortly after.
There can be no doubt that the Houthi potential for launching drones and missiles has been significantly reduced.
But there is also no doubt that it requires only a miniscule strike rate to keep insurance rates high and hence to force shipping to go via the Cape. The average container ship cargo is something in the order of $100 million.
Meanwhile, hungry Yemeni women and children might just be wondering whether the Houthi spend on missiles and the like should really be the Houthi priority. But I understand that the Houthi do not do elections.
Also in the meantime, famine-struck Somalis are learning the fundamental principle of global hunger: the more expensive the commodity, the more extensive the hunger. The cost per ton around the Cape is much higher than the direct route via the Horn of Africa.
Team Katich @ #538 Tuesday, February 20th, 2024 – 11:32 am
You mean the Agrarian Socialists leader? 🙂
I posit that the Houthi aren’t actually paying for their drones.
bobsays:
Tuesday, February 20, 2024 at 11:19 am
“What convoys would they be?. Not those taking iron ore to China i would guess.”
Well under the assumption that we’re in a war that requires fighting China or the Russian Pacific Fleet, it would be convoys carrying the army where it needs to go.
===================================================
Besides UN backed operations. What force deployment can you see us carrying out without the backing of the USA?. I would assume if getting troops to a site in which we were fighting as USA allies. We would also have USA naval backing to get those troops to this hypothetical site. If the hazards you suggest were in play. If we are taking on the Chinese navy alone we are stuffed, no matter whether the ships we build are first class or not. We would be crazy to do it via long distant force deployment. The best option would be homeland and regional defence in that case.
Easy Google search. Aldi does donate to many food charities. Should be supported.
Labor are failing so many Australian children and adults.
Aldi: We are proud to partner with food rescue organisations around the country including Foodbank, OzHarvest and SecondBite, and with countless local charities and community groups, to help us get quality surplus food from our stores and distribution centres to the people who need it most.
https://corporate.aldi.com.au › foo…
Food Rescue – ALDI Austra
““The planned number of Offshore Patrol Vessels being built in Western Australia will be halved to six”
imacca – what is your claim based on? WA is going backwards based on the ABC reporting.”
No, WA is doing handsomely out of this plan. The Arafuras ($300 million each) are reduced from 12 to 6. The new 11 ship General Purpose frigates ($1 billion+ each) goes to Perth instead. Probably an extra $10+ billion here for Perth.
Boerwar says:
Tuesday, February 20, 2024 at 11:34 am
“Meanwhile, hungry Yemeni women and children might just be wondering whether the Houthi spend on missiles and the like should really be the Houthi priority.”
They won’t be spending anything – they are just another arm of the Iranian military.
Mostly Interested says:
Tuesday, February 20, 2024 at 11:23 am
Samantha Maiden turning English on its head in an endeavor to suggest Albo will call an election in 2024.
https://www.news.com.au/national/federal-election/leaked-internal-messages-suggest-anthony-albanese-will-call-election-in-2024/news-story/96d6ad614d96e6fbc926d43f67eca9b0
___________________________________________
An election any time between July 2024 and May 2025 has always been on the cards. Not an “early” election because the Half Senate can go with the Reps. Indeed, an election must be held before May 2025.
So this news is nothing more than Albanese doing what a good smart Prime Minister should do – gear up for an election year.
Will there be an election in 2024? Nobody knows; not even Albanese. He will go when it seems propitious at the time, unless he runs out of time, as Morrison did in 2022.
If we are ‘entering an election year’ now (ie. today) doesn’t that mean that the author thinks that the election will be called at some stage up to an including 20 February 2025?
I think the smart money is on a March 2025 election, so calling that would require a visit to the GG in mid February next year. So, IMO we ARE entering an election year. Doesn’t mean the election will actually be held in 2024 though …